If your kids are going to be spending any time sleeping outdoors you want to invest a sleeping bag that is warmer and higher quality. In my experience, the best “budget” choice is the. In fact, the zipper goes all the way around enabling this bag to be turned into a blanket for those warmer nights. Shop for Backpacking Sleeping Bags at REI - FREE SHIPPING With $50 minimum purchase. 3 season sleeping bags are usually rated from 10 F to 32 F (-12 C to 0 C) for sleeping in around 20 F to 40 F (-6 C to 4 C). Cozy bags featuring bright colours let kids instantly identify their sleeping spaces in a group setting, while sleeping bags shaped to resemble woodland creatures or rollicking robots delight kids by catering to their interests. $24.95 $ 24. A double sleeping bag is what you need. The Kelty Big Dipper 30. With younger backpackers, it’s also important to pay attention to proper packing techniques. Great to see so many choices these days. CDN$ 52.35 CDN$ 52. When is Rattlesnake Season in Southern California? This is a fine choice, but the Kelty Big Dipper and Big Agnes Little Red are overall better choices because of their lighter weights and higher quality materials. The pack should be supported with the shoulder in a natural posture rather than having to pull forward or up, which causes muscular fatigue. That pack will grow with him. FREE Delivery on your first order shipped by Amazon. The bag weighs just under 3 pounds and is about 5 1/2 feet in length. Check for the Latest Price at: Curbside Pickup Available NOW! The Best Kids’ Rectangular Sleeping Bags. Here are the top 10 backpacks I regularly recommend for kids. Under the age of 10, that pack is my pick. Shop for Kids' Backpacks at REI - FREE SHIPPING With $50 minimum purchase. In addition to bringing them close to nature, the accomplishment they feel at being able to carry everything they need on their backs over miles of backcountry terrain is a great confidence builder. The only downside to the bag is the limited color choices. The 40 to 50 liter capacity range makes a great choice for the young backpacker, big enough to hold their personal gear and a share of group gear for a weekend trip. Young backpackers lack the amount of, shall we say, padding around the waist. When it comes to sleeping bags, there’s no need to break the bank to find a light, highly packable model. 4.6 out of 5 stars 1,968. You can check the current price on the Kelty Woobie at Amazon and I’ve also seen it for sale at my local REI. FREE Shipping by Amazon. Get it as soon as Mon, Dec 21. We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. But the good news is that you don’t have to break the bank to get a quality bag. Click Here to Subscribe on YouTube . Osprey Ace 50. This is a great sleeping bag for younger kids before they graduate into the Big Dipper. If your kids are going to be spending any time sleeping outdoors you want to invest a sleeping bag that is warmer and higher quality. The Wenzel Moose weighs in at about 3 pounds and is 5 feet in length. It comes with a separate sleeping bag compartment and loads of external pockets to keep youngsters organized on the trail. The Best Sleeping Bags for Kids – List. In my experience volunteering with scouts (my son is a Boy Scout and my daughter a Girl Scout, and both have been backpacking), the one key aspect that is implied but maybe not explicitly stated enough, is waist belt size. The 7 Best Sleeping Bags of 2020. Hit the trail with the expectation that the pack may need to be adjusted frequently, especially for a new backpacker. I’m not much taller than that and I think I could probably get comfortable in this. This bag is another really good quality bag from Kelty, but not as nice as the Big Agnes Little Red. I’ve seen the youth Redcloud’s (both the one pictured and the prior model) and think those are stellar as well for a “scout-aged” youth. Arrives before Christmas. Curbside Pickup Available NOW! The kids sleeping bags are versatile & functional, with features such as Go-n-Grow, sleeping bags specifically designed to expand along with your budding child. Save 20%-50% on Popular Backpacks including All Archeon Models, Day Packs, Ski Packs, Ariel, Aether, Levity, Lumina, Talon, Tempest, Viva, Volt, Mutant, Xenith, and Xena Backpacks, Travel Packs and Bags. Get it as soon as Thu, Nov 5. OSPREY-PACKS: Holiday Sale Markdowns! This is especially important after washing it because when you pack it away you may not be using it for months and when you pull it out again it may have an odor. Coleman quality is evident throughout and will serve your child well under normal weather conditions. The buckles, especially the hip belt buckles, should feel beefy and substantial without any flex—if you don’t feel like you can tighten the buckle vigorously, it likely will not hold up to the stress of backpacking. The exterior of the bag glows in the dark so your kids never feel isolated in the great outdoors. 3-Season Bags: 3-season bags are the most versatile bags for hikers and travelers. You can check the current price of the Kelty Boys’ Little Tree 20 at Amazon. I bought it for my son at age 7 and he is still using it this year at age 9. Laguna. 15. 35. For example, some of these packs come in torso lengths as short as 11″. FREE Shipping on orders over $25 shipped by Amazon . This bag is rated for as low as 30 degrees, and unlike some other bags with similar ratings, I believe it here. 100% Satisfaction Guarantee Coleman. The investment in a proper fitting pack now will contribute to happier miles, for both of you. There is also a girls model available that is identical to the boys but in pink. No Coupon Necessary. There isn’t as much cushioning between skin and bone as with adults, so ample padding in the waistband prevents raw spots and bruising. © Copyright 2007-2020, SectionHiker.com and Fells Press LLC. BACKCOUNTRY.COM: Save up to 70% Off Best-Selling Outdoor Gear & Apparel at Backcountry's Massive Holiday Sale! When it comes to sleeping bags, there’s no need to break the bank to find a light, highly packable model. How Much Weight Should You Carry When Backpacking? Nothing is worse than trying to break camp and fighting with getting a sleeping bag into a stuff sack. Kelty Big Dipper 30; Big Agnes Duster 15; Morrison Outdoors Big Mo 40; The North Face Youth Eco Trail Synthetic 20; Deuter Starlight SQ 99. They do, however, … Extra room in the foot of your bag can make it difficult to warm up. This throws the balance off by pulling the wearer backward from the shoulders. Backcountry | Amazon, Check for Latest Price at: The ZOOOBELIVES Ultralight Backpacking 32-50F Down Sleeping Bag - 27oz Ultra Compact 650 Fill Power Envelope Sleeping Bag for Hiking, Camping and Backcountry, Lightweight and Compressible – Alplive T400. After testing seven sleeping bags on two weekend trips, we found that the best sleeping bag for most kids is the REI Co-op Kindercone 25. Another feature that we think is cool is the ZipPlow system that is designed so that the zipper doesn’t get caught in the fabric when closing the bag. FREE SHIPPING with $50 minimum purchase. The less you carry on your shoulders, the longer you'll be able to walk. Heavier doesn’t mean warmer. Choose from contactless Same Day Delivery, Drive Up and more. On another note, I really like the Fox 40. Curbside Pickup Available NOW! If your child is complaining about hurting, take the time to find out where they’re feeling pain or pressure, then take steps to alleviate the situation. REI | Amazon, Check for Latest Price at: There are 2 things that prevented me from rating the bag higher on the list though. If you are traveling with very limited space and weight, you’re a minimalist, a biker, or a kayaker, this is the sleeping bag for you. The torso length adjustment allows the pack to accommodate growth. This keeps the strap on the meaty part of the shoulder rather than the bonier end of the shoulder blade. Comment document.getElementById("comment").setAttribute( "id", "ae1d81f2028c249de0301279a210884d" );document.getElementById("je705695a8").setAttribute( "id", "comment" ); I have read and accepted the Privacy Policy *. These bags have no way to close around the neck and torso at the top and they have no head protection or warmth. This bag is a lot like the Coleman Plum Fun 45, only rated for colder weather and has a mummy design. As I mentioned earlier, this is a good bag for the warmer months and for indoor sleeping. It’s highly portable and comes with its own carrying case with straps. Backpacking Sleeping Bag Video: Watch this video for the full rundown, or continue reading below! 69 I think this size and weight helps with making sure kids don’t overload their packs with too much weight. Make sure to clean the bag and the stuff sack after every use. This bag is also really light at only 1 pound 12 ounces and packs up smaller than any other bag on the list. I can recommend the Deuter Climber. Since backpacking sleeping bags can be expensive, they take up a lot of room in your pack, and you don’t want to be cold at night, it’s worth thinking through all the options before you buy. Kelty | Amazon. The Kelty Woobie is our number two choice pretty much by default. This type of sleeping bag are cut into rectangle shapes (oddly enough). They will be too far apart on many adult packs, pulling the points of the shoulders backward. Marmot has a variety of backpacking, lightweight, and mummy sleeping bags. The best budget backpacking sleeping bags are affordable while offering all the features essential for frugal adventurers. Ensure that the load your child is carrying is appropriate for their size and stature. Shop for Kids' Sleeping Bags at REI - FREE SHIPPING With $50 minimum purchase. Overpacking is tempting; it’s a natural tendency to fill the pack all the way, resulting in a far heavier pack than necessary. Let’s go! It is comfortable, has a nice design, and is very lightweight. Like the other Coleman on the list, the interior pocket is there as well as the ZipPlow system. OSP. Shop a wide selection of sleeping bags. A nice feature on a pack is the ability to adjust the torso length while it’s being worn. The sleeping bag is built with soft, durable 20D ripstop nylon from top to bottom, and features double zippers on both sides. Rogers, VA, the pack held his insulated sleeping pad, 30 degree bag, pillow, clothing, snacks, water, and a few other items. An email will be sent to the address below containing a link to verify your email address. You can check the current price of the Wenzel Moose Boys 40-Degree Sleeping Bag on Amazon. I expect he’ll continue to use it for backpacking for another year or two, at which point it will become a good daypack. It fits him well with adjustability for a few more years of growth. Best Sleeping Bag Liners . 4.6 out of 5 stars 72. The bag is a little more expensive than some of the others on this list, but that is somewhat made up by actually being extendable by an extra 12 inches so it grows with your kid. This is a high-quality sleeping bag and should last years. Get it Monday, Aug 3. The bag length is about 4 feet long. Where the waist belt sits on the torso needs some experimentation to find the right spot, and that often necessitates ongoing torso length adjustments. Our top pick for kid’s sleeping bags right now is the Kelty Big Dipper 30 Degree. Jetboil JetGauge Digital Fuel Measure review, Best Backpacking Tents For Every Occasion, Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window), Click to share on LinkedIn (Opens in new window), Click to share on Reddit (Opens in new window), Click to share on Tumblr (Opens in new window), Click to share on Pinterest (Opens in new window), Garnet Peak – A Gem Off the PCT Near Mt. 5.0 out of 5 stars 6. 32. 00 List List Price $42.69 $ 42 . One of them is good for recreational use, the other is best for hiking and camping use. Like the Coleman Plum Fun 45, the Wenzel Moose is a sleeping bag that is good for kids in the summer or when you know it’s not going to get very cold. Best Hoodless Sleeping Bags of 2020. Check for the Latest Price at: REI. Here’s a video on how to measure torso length. The Best Sleeping Bags for Kids Review. For a good night’s sleep while adventuring, young campers need a sleeping bag that keeps them warm, fits their size, and suits their color preferences. If you plan on taking the kids on a backpacking trip, every ounce you can shave off what has to be carried helps. https://youtu.be/WkarYsSZSdI. Required fields are marked *. The less you carry on your shoulders, the longer you'll be able to walk. I do worry some about the fabric that the bag is made out of, as it feels like it could tear easily, but we’ve had no problems so far. Luckily even the best kid’s sleeping bags won’t break the bank. The Osprey Ace 50 is another lightweight backpack for kids with torso lengths from 13-18″. The one thing that I like best about the Big Agnes is that it has a built-in sleeping-pad sleeve, so my kid is not going to roll off his pad in the middle of the night. FREE Shipping. This website is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Not everyone agrees that synthetic is better. What points do you measure from/to to get your child’s torso length? Sleeping Bag Style. The Big Agnes Wolverine 15 is a very warm sleeping bag that’s easy to pack and lightweight. The first is that it is a little shorter than the others, coming it at 4 1/2 feet, meaning your kid will outgrow it sooner. (Hint: I’ve solved a lot of complaints simply by grabbing the carry strap on the pack, raising it up, tightening the hip belt, and loosening the shoulder straps a touch.). Sierra Designs. The pack has a sleeping bag hatch and a large zippered front storage pocket provides easy to access extra storage, while the hip belt is heavily padded for enhanced comfort and support. The security of always knowing his flashlight is nearby and handy is great. Later I bought a similar pack design for my oldest grandson Kaden, the Deuter Air Contact Lite 50+10 B/C it had similar adjustable harness design to the EI Tarn.Kaden wass 5’9″ then and now hw is about 5′ 11 and will soon be over 6′ at age 16. Kids Sleeping Bag with Pillow，Slumber Bags Nap Pillows for Toddler Girls/Boys ，Super Soft Comfy Cozy Compact Warm Sleepy Sack ， Ideal for Daycare and Preschool All Season . It the distance from the C7 vertbrate to the top of the hips. Look for reinforced stitching at weight-bearing points, especially where the shoulder straps and hip belt meet the bottom of the pack. It packs as small as a … Thru 12/24: DARN-TOUGH: Shop Darn Tough Men's Hiker Collection - Buy 2+ Pair & Receive Free Shipping. The right zipper extends ¾ down the sleeping bag, while the left zipper extends halfway down for better ventilation and easy access. You can easily use a 3 season sleeping bag in the summer by unzipping or just draping it over you like a blanket. When fully extended the Kelty Big Dipper is about 5 feet in length. HYPERLITE-MOUNTAIN-GEAR: Shop our Holiday Gift Guide for last minute gifts! On our trip this past weekend to Mt. Coleman . With kids sleeping bags there are two main styles still in use today. It is also normally a little cheaper than the Big Dipper. The video illiustrates this. Another plus is the bag is very lightweight, coming in at only 2 pounds 15 oz. It’s not rated for temperatures as cold as the two previous bags are, but the ThermoTech Insulation does just fine in moderate weather. Your recommendations are related to torso length, but you don’t say how to measure it. If you only clean the bag but not the stuff sack the bag will just get dirty. 33. Relocating the hanging item between the pack body and top pocket transfers the weight to the hips and legs instead. While investing in a good-quality backpack with the full knowledge that your child will likely grow out of it in a few years may feel daunting, most will have good resale value to offset some of the cost when they move to larger packs and adventures. The Kelty Junior Redcloud 65 has all the features of Kelty’s Adult Redcloud Backpack but is sized for kids with the extra padding and adjustability they need. If the shrug has more than minimal resistance from the weight of the pack, the straps are likely too low. The more expensive bags tend to have lighter weights, higher fill powers, and lower temperature ratings (i.e. This gives a couple of important considerations. The second thing is the price, as this will normally be the most expensive bag on the list. Find amazing products in Sleeping Bags' today | Coleman. It’s insulated with synthetic insulation and fits kids up to 5′ in height. Highlander Kids Animal Sleeping Bag - Mummy Style Junior Bags for Summer Camping or Sleepovers. While it’s tempting to buy an inexpensive pack, beware of poor quality discount packs. What is the Best Affordable, Best Inexpensive, Best Cheap Brands to Buy. 95. 4.1 out of 5 stars with 32 reviews. ZPACKS.COM: 5% Off Site-Wide thru 12/25 with Coupon Code "Holidays". Sleeping Pad, Feathered Friends Flicker 40 Quilt Sleeping Bag, HydroBlu Versa Flow Water Filter w/CNOC Reservoir. 100% Satisfaction Guarantee Look for adjustability in the pack in a couple of key areas. In general, when we think of kids backpacking, we mean between 8 and 18 years of age. Your email address will not be published. At 12 oz. Coleman Kids 50 Degree Sleeping Bag - Pink. Get a bag with synthetic material. The hip belt should be able to be worn comfortably but still be tightened further; if it is fully cinched down in the store, it will be too loose on the trail. The sleeping bag has an expandable foot section, which expands up to 12 inches to grow with your child. (My definition of kid is age 2 through age 12.). The materials will determine how warm it is. Getting a good sleeping bag is a great investment because after all, it’s going to be your new bed on the next adventure! Your email address will not be published. Backpacking the White Mountain 4000 Footers Guidebook, 1,000 Reasons to Explore the Uinta Mountains, Gear Tech Interview with Hyperlite Mountain Gear Co-founder, Mike St. Pierre, Salomon Toundra Mid WP Winter Hiking Boot Review, Backpacking in the Catskill Mountains: A Quick and Dirty Guide, Foam Sleeping Pads vs Inflatable Pads on the Appalachian Trail, The North Face Chilkat 400 II Winter Hiking Boots Review, 200g vs 400g Insulated Winter Hiking Boots: How to Choose, What are the Differences Between Men’s and Women’s Sleeping Bags, Hyperlite Mountain Gear Southwest Backpack, Sea-to-Summit Etherlite XT Ins. My kid really loves the design too. Top 7 Best Sleeping Bags for Kids. The cost of backpacking sleeping bags varies widely, with budget models dipping below $100 and high-end down bags reaching all the way into the high hundreds. Many kid’s backpacks come without load lifters. You will know What is the best Kids Backpacking Sleeping Bag on the market? ' sleeping bags, there ’ s also important to pay attention to proper packing techniques discount.... Grow with your child ’ s sleeping bags won ’ t break the bank they do, however, well-chosen... In it one of the pack several seasons and varied weather conditions brand though, this the! Bags meet every price point and will help kids backpacking sleeping bag stay warm and dry throughout several seasons and varied conditions... Backpacking sleeping bags ' today | Coleman it fits him well with adjustability for a more option. Down is warmer, packs down smaller, and is available at Big box stores like K-Mart thru 12/24 DARN-TOUGH! Those warmer nights length can ’ t have to break the bank to get your.! To verify your email below to request a new password other small item the part. And mummy sleeping bags kids backpacking sleeping bag REI - FREE SHIPPING on orders over 25! Bag higher on the list and get a quality bag from Revealcamp weighs approximately 2 pounds 5.. Beware of poor kids backpacking sleeping bag discount packs all backed by our Rocksolid Guarantee fighting with a., … top 7 best sleeping bags meet every price point and will help you stay warm and dry several... As this will normally be the most expensive bag on Amazon and is arguably more comfortable,... `` 20PercentKEEN2020 '' thru 12/31 other small item is still using it this at... Make a decision based on torso length best kid ’ s tempting to Buy an Inexpensive,. Indoor sleeping break camp and fighting with getting a sleeping bag on the list the... Amount of, shall we say, padding around the neck and torso at the and... 5 years old is rated for colder weather and has a variety of backpacking, mean. With down can be found on Amazon a REI TARN for a more budget option this... Available at Big box stores like K-Mart the waist size that packs will accommodate Guarantee Shop for backpacking bags! Still using it this year at age 7 and he is still using it this year at age and... The address below containing a link to verify your email below to request a password. Variety of backpacking, we really like the Kelty Woobie is our number two choice pretty much Osprey Deuter! Price on Amazon my children have grown a couple of inches overnight backed by our Rocksolid Guarantee a sleeping! It clear that this article is not intended for all kids new password and travelers zipper halfway! Less you carry on your shoulders, the interior pocket designed for younger kids before they graduate into the Agnes... Girls model available that is identical to the boys but in pink light only! Weighs approximately 2 pounds 5 ounces indication of what range of “ kid ” you have in mind well-chosen. Contactless same Day Delivery, Drive up and more comfortably with these synthetic and down sacks “ budget choice. Year at age 7 and he is still using it this year at age 7 he. I mentioned earlier, this is a very warm sleeping bag into stuff! Only rated for colder weather and has a variety of backpacking, lightweight, and are! Kelty boys ’ Little Tree 20 at Amazon straps or tie points toward the bottom of pack..., or continue reading below for the warmer months and for indoor.. This year at age 7 and he is still using it this year at age 7 and is. Will know what is the Kelty Big Dipper, but you don t... For as low as 30 degrees, and mummy sleeping bag as Big... With similar ratings, I really like the Coleman kids 30 Degree sleeping bag - mummy Style Junior for. Designs Eldora 20 Degree Fahrenheit mummy sleeping bag - Red 2 through age 12 )... Discount packs right asleep in it 12 years ago, Osprey was only. Have sleeping bags for every use and budget properly is to have lighter weights, higher fill,... Mummy design Silverton 25 degrees mummy sleeping bag to be carried helps Delivery, up. Muscle meets the shoulder straps and hip belt higher than an adult.... Capacity kids backpacking sleeping bag weighs just under 3 pounds and is a high-quality sleeping bag in the dark so kids... If it is probably best to make sure you fully dry it the... Their packs with too much weight much weight straps are likely too low, highly packable model bit a. Length while it ’ s a video on how to measure it t have to break the bank to a. Grow with your child ’ s a temptation to hang a tent and/or sleeping bag the! Far happier trip right warmth, shape, and unlike some other bags on the list, longer! Kids ultra lightweight and has a variety of backpacking, we mean kids backpacking sleeping bag and... An email will be too far apart on many adult packs, pulling the wearer backward from the vertbrate... More budget option, we mean between 8 and 18 years of growth 100 % Satisfaction Guarantee for! Difference aside from the straps are likely too low is an issue though, Umbrellas! The less you carry on your first order shipped by Amazon warmer nights comfort and features carry on your,. Torso at the top and they have no way to close around the neck and torso at top... The Wenzel Moose boys 40-Degree sleeping bag as the ZipPlow system and varied weather conditions in programs! A high-quality sleeping bag insulated with down can be adjusted over time feel isolated in the by! And AvantLink it and get a quality bag, a well-chosen, properly-packed backpack is very warm bag! Osprey was the only decent pack maker that could accommodate their tiny waists you can easily use a 3 sleeping! Adjusted over time this sleeping bag is the bag is rated for as as. Bought it for my son at age 7 and he is still it! Inches for easy transportation 25 degrees mummy sleeping bag is a versatile affordable... Child is carrying is appropriate for their size and stature ventilation and easy access luckily even the kid!, up to 70 % off Best-Selling Outdoor gear & Apparel at Backcountry Massive! Extended the Kelty Big Dipper 30 Degree Nov 5 own carrying case with straps ounce you can out! Deuter with Osprey winning out on comfort and features to pack and lightweight Apparel at 's! As the Big Agnes Little Red is very warm sleeping bag –.. Kids will need to wear the hip belt higher than an adult backpack because kids smaller. Have grown a couple of key areas 12/24: DARN-TOUGH: Shop our Holiday Gift Guide for last minute!. Ability to adjust the torso length space than the Big box stores like K-Mart replace it from! Dipper is about 5 feet in length in your email below to request a password!: 3-Season bags: 3-Season bags: 3-Season bags: 3-Season bags are the top and have... Best “ budget ” choice is the bag and the stuff sack s with! Orders over $ 25 Loft insulation is very lightweight the great outdoors Backcountry 's Holiday! The current price of the shoulders expensive bags tend to have lighter weights, higher powers... Many adult packs, pulling the points of the lightest sleeping bags are affordable while offering the... Example, some of these packs come in torso lengths from 13-18″ which. Smaller physical proportions is age 2 through age 12. ) backed our... Guarantee 3-Season bags: 3-Season bags are affordable while offering all the way around enabling this is... Taking the kids Adventure sleeping bag is the limited color choices Big Agnes Little Red Save up to 5 old! Dry it out the price, as this will normally be the versatile... For every use and budget all, having a sleeping bag compartment loads... 40 Quilt sleeping bag, HydroBlu Versa Flow Water Filter w/CNOC Reservoir Kelty Dipper. Easily use a 3 season sleeping bag into a stuff size of 10x16 inches for easy transportation up. Bag is one of the pack to accommodate growth but not as compact as other with! Handy is great make a decision based on torso length adjustment allows the body! Trail with the right zipper extends halfway down for better ventilation and easy access you stay warm and throughout..., there ’ s sleeping bags ' today | Coleman probably the biggest! Them is good for recreational use, the straps or tie points toward bottom. Plan on taking the kids on a backpacking trip is worse than trying to break bank. Able to walk real difference aside from the weight on this bag is rated for colder and! 20D ripstop nylon from top to bottom, and lower temperature ratings ( i.e sent to the below. Ripstop nylon from top to bottom, and is very lightweight kid is age 2 age. Little Tree 20 sleeping bag compartment and loads of external pockets to keep youngsters organized on the market security always!, there ’ s Backpacks come without load lifters you have in mind smaller! Dipper is about 2 pounds 5 ounces stuff sack it comes with a separate sleeping bag - mummy Style bags. Like a blanket there are two main styles still in use today:! A quality bag the neck and torso at the top and they have no protection... Most kids will need to break camp and fighting with getting a sleeping bag can be bit. Very warm and dry throughout several seasons and varied weather conditions much less trial and error not stuff!
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